Informality is a wrong concept. Because informality is always defined in relation to formality. But that, I mean, somehow it's always the negative of it. But we have also to understand what is a formality. How is that regulated? So it's a regulation process. So first you have to understand what is the formal process.

Interview:

MS: How do you describe nowadays this migration from rural areas to the city? Do you see that as a trend or as an opportunity for a better life?

CSCH: That depends completely on this concrete situation. You have this migration all over the world, so you can't give any general answer to that. It's impossible. So you have to look at the concrete situation. That's always... So this relationship is always very specific.

MS: Do you see that it's different from the city? What are the reasons that people migrate? Do they still migrate? Is that circular migration? 

CSCH: This is a universe. Migration is a universe. So it's not like you have... I mean, that classic idea, there is somewhere a countryside and there's somewhere a city and people migrate from the countryside to the city. I mean, forget about that. I mean, even in historical samples, even in the 19th century, this was not a one-way road. This is always very complex. People go to a place and then they go back. Today it's even much more complicated. You have daily mobility, you have weekly mobility, you have seasonal mobility, you have... Even from Kosovo to Switzerland, migration to Switzerland. I mean, that was seasonal migration because, at the time, they had to return. They couldn't stay. So they could come for nine months and then they had to go back and then come again. Even here, and then it was not necessarily a migration to the city, it was probably a migration to tourist resorts. 

 
MS: What do you consider as a factor of urban transformation? How the city can change? What do you think are the factors that can change the architecture or urban transformation?
 
CSCH: The point is that what happened in the time, so very, very generally in the time after the war, between 1950, let's say, and 1970. So these boom years. These were boom years, of course, also, let's say, in Turkey or Mexico. No, not only in Western Europe or in the US. And there you had this type of migration that you mean. So rural, urban migration. That was very, very common. And at that moment, you had a huge problem. You had suddenly for large cities, let's say, Mexico City or Istanbul or Paris this were our studies, you had hundred thousand of people every year that went to these cities. And this was how these cities grew. And Then the huge question is what happens when people arrive? Similarly, if you go to Lagos, that went on until today. Their migration, this heavy migration process is going on until today. In Paris, it stopped. In Mexico City, it stopped. In Istanbul, it stopped. It's a different constellation. 

Then the question is people arrive in a place. Suddenly, you have migrants. They arrive in the city. They have to stay somewhere. What is the solution? The interesting thing is we studied that. In Paris, it was mass housing urbanization. The state intervened and started to construct housing. On a large scale. In Istanbul, there was... I mean, the very short version of that is you have Gecekondu

Mexico City, was a communal land, of different types. Again, it could be accepted. There was no private owner that suddenly showed up and said, No, it is my land. It was the municipality or it was a collective land. In that situation, these are the solutions. the only way is you construct your own house. However you do that in Mexico City, people constructed their own houses. Still today, I mean, half of Mexico City is constructed by the people themselves. 

MS: Migration is the key function of urban transformation. Also, I think migrationis a key function of architectural informality. I think knowing the situation in Balkan citiesbecause I think the informality of architecture has two levels.For example, architecture informality is a key to low incomes. But in the Balkan thathappens something in another way. For example, they have enough money, but theywant to build how they want.What do you think about informality architecture?

CSCH: Informality is a wrong concept. Because informality is always defined in relation to formality. But that, I mean, somehow it's always the negative of it. But we have also to understand what is a formality. How is that regulated? So it's a regulation process. So first you have to understand what is the formal process. Then you have to understand what kind of options the formal building process allows you. So, I mean, in the case of Lagos, they also call that informal. But the point is that there is almost no regulation. So in Lagos, you can buy a piece of land. And it's complicated because you can't fully buy it. But that's another thing. There's traditional ownership and there is modern ownership and there is an overlap. Often you have to buy the land twice. You have to make a formal contract. And then you have to pay for the family who says they are the original owners. And then there are no clear laws that apply. Then you start to construct something. So you can call that informal. But in the sense of what is then formal planning in Lagos. It exists, but that exists only as a kind of state-approved project. But the way how people build... I mean, if you go to the countryside, don't you?.

So what do you have to... So the only way you can answer that question is that you need detailed research. So what is the production process? You as an architect can do that, of course, because you understand the challenges and the problems. So what do you have to... So don't care about formality and informality. Just care about the process? If somebody, as you said, at a certain moment acquires a piece of land, what is the process of acquiring that piece of land? Who is selling the land? And what are the rights of this person who acquires that land to construct something? And are there certain laws that are... Regulations that they have to follow? And then there is the formal law. There's the paper, and then there's the practice.

Okay, but are they... I mean, yeah, there are some laws, but I mean... Does anybody care about the law,? I mean, no? I mean, so there are the regulations, but are they implemented or not? Is there somebody that goes there and says, this is not according to the law? You have to demolish your house. I mean, to give you an example, in India, from Mumbai. So there, in one of these so-called informal settlements, then they construct... They are just allowed to do one floor, aren't they? And then they make a second floor.

It's not allowed. So, okay. So what are they doing? They are constructing a wall, brick, no? So they are constructing an additional wall, second floor. Everybody sees that. And then somebody from the municipality comes and says, this is not allowed. And then you have to demolish that. And then there is a ceremony, no? Somebody from the police is there, from the state is there. You have to demolish that wall. So everybody watches it. Okay, the wall is demolished. The officer goes home. And then you construct a second floor?

No, I mean, and how you find out that? I mean, we had a wonderful PhD on that question by an architect. And he really observed that, no? So he went into the details. So how is that possible? So that's all illegal. So it's also a difference between illegality and informality. So you have to understand what are the rules. And how are these rules implemented? And this is the way how the rule was implemented. To demolish the wall, that's it. So the officer writes, okay. Okay, problem solved. Wall demolished. And then he never comes back. And then you construct a second floor. So that's the way how they do it in that specific case. So important is that you find out. So here you have to, this is ethnographic research.

So you, I mean, you do interviews, but also you do observations. And to find out how that works, no? And then you understand, and then you have to reconstruct that model. So what is the model? So how the city could grow. Yeah, how it was possible that 100,000 more people live in that city in the last 20 years, okay. How did that happen, no? And you have to reconstruct that. And you have the law, and you have the regulations, and you have the bylaws, and then you have the practice. And so you have to look at the laws, and you have to look at the practice. And then that tells you how that process goes. And then you can give it a name, but it's not, you won't name it informal. You would name it differently, no? It's, in Italy, it is a kind of tolerated illegality, no? And then there are amnesties. 

There are always amnesties. And that's important. This was in the case in Essen, in the amnesties, the amnesties in, well, I mean, yeah, in the case of Turkey, in Istanbul, you really had, you had then certain amnesties that then somehow, somehow legalized, so the whole thing became legalized, step by step. In Italy, you have regular amnesties. I mean, there were even people who went to court, no? They said, now they want that I demolish the house that I built in the, by the way, this was in the red zone of Vesuvius, in the dangerous zone, no? So there was a good reason why they should have to demolish that house. So they went to court and said, but there is every, every five years, more or less, there is an amnesty. So we could count on that, no? So, okay, so, and that's the way how that is regulated, no? So you, you break the law and it's illegal and everybody knows it. And then every five or 10 years, depending on the prime minister, no, there is an amnesty. Okay, fine. Everything is regulated. So, so, so this is, so you have to find out about this kind of mechanisms, no? And to reconstruct that. And then you understand the process of, of construction, no? And then you only, then you understand also what you can do. Because it's, doesn't, doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, but there is, there are laws here. Well, there are laws, yeah, fine. But yeah, yeah, but they are here, but here is what we are doing. So, so, so that, and then you can understand, this is also the base. This is the very, I mean, that's quite some important research that you have to do to really get it. And sometimes people don't tell you, sometimes people tell you how it works. But I mean, that case, the case in Mumbai was really, this was really interesting because he just, so the researcher just, he didn't know that. So he just, he just looked at what happens. And, and, and then, and then, and then he,

okay, then somebody gave him a tip. Okay, yeah. So, so tomorrow somebody will come from the, from the, and then they explained him how it works. So, so you have to be clever and observe and discuss and discuss with the people who own the house, discuss with the workers who construct the house. Discuss with, with the planners who are desperate because they make, they make plans and describe zones. And then suddenly this, they think we could do something nice here. And then suddenly, oh no, you can't. Why? Yeah, it's already, it's already done. No, there's already some houses there. So what can we do? So this, I mean, that's, I think that's a key. And then you have to understand the law of the land. So who, so what are the different ways to own land? They are very different.

MS: As I understood, you say that mostly of the informality building, for example, are illegal, built illegal.

CSCH: Not necessarily. Yeah. It could be tolerated. So the case of Istanbul and, and, and, and Mexico, it was not really illegal. It was not, it was not really illegal. It was, it followed certain laws. And then, so, so you have, you have just to, you have to research the laws. No, the laws, but how they are on paper and how they are in practice. So that's, so that's the way how you find out. I mean, even, I mean, you could even in, well, I mean, Switzerland, Switzerland is, in Switzerland you can't do, in Switzerland you can't. Yeah, I mean, Switzerland, there are not, there are not many ways to get exceptions or something. So here it's quite strict. 

MS: My next question is, what should we learn from this informality, for example? Can we learn something so that we cannot repeat this problem or the municipality can change the law or something like that? 

CHSCH: Yes. You can learn a lot. I mean, if you analyze this urban development of that specific city, you have to analyze, first of all, the way how, I mean, the procedures. I call that the procedure, no? So how construction does, what is the procedure to get the house built? And then only then you can start to give any kind of useful advice. So, yeah. So the point is, it is not only what can you learn, but it is indispensable. You can't say anything about urban development without knowing how that works. That's your starting point. And then you can think about, okay, now come all the practical things. How they get electricity, how they get water, how they organize sewage, and, and, and, and, no?

And that's always the, I mean, and then you can also look on, I mean, the only thing I know in the Balkans here is, in Belgrade, this neighborhood, so Milica Topolovic wrote about that. Yeah, I cannot remember the name. I just, yeah, but this is, it was a very wealthy, these were very wealthy people, and they, it was all illegally produced, no? And we visited that place, and it was, we visited that while there was a thunderstorm, and I couldn't believe it, no? So these were all these villas, so they called it the wild ridge, no? 

And, I have it almost. Anyway, and, I mean, the point was, this was, this was built on a slope. And the slope, during heavy rain, became a torrent. It was a waterfall, no? Because, of course, there was no, there wasn't, there was no drainage, no? There was no, there was no, it was just a road, and they paved the road, but they didn't do anything, and, no? So, so you couldn't, so during rain you couldn't use the roads, no? In that neighborhood. You had the villas, and then you had, no? It was fully flooded, fully flooded. It was unbelievable. So these kind of things, no? And then you have to understand, okay, why is that, of course? Because they didn't, so they didn't do a planning, they didn't make a layout, how they get there. So, so that's the reason why this is so important, no? 

MS: What do you should recommend, what is your recommendation for the post-war cities? I mean postwar cities as Zagreb, I mean Pristina, something like this, and also other cities?

CSCH: Look, our, we published a book, The Inevitable Specificity of Cities. Studio Basel book. It will be online soon. I think it's a great book. It didn't get much attention, but the point is that, so each city, even in one and the same country, is very different. So don't think if you understand Zurich, you also understand Geneva. You will not understand it. Geneva follows, is in the same country, but follows very different rules and procedures. And even the planning process is different. And the aesthetic kind of ideas about what is a good city are different.

What is a good city are different than and the traditions are different in Zurich we have cooperatives in Geneva You don't have you have you have kind of state agencies who construct housing. So even here this is our very very different ways to handle the situation and and so so in so so Zagreb is of course I Mean already if you take Zagreb and Belgrade, so that those two cities I know a little bit so so I mean and The situation in the situation is very very different and I mean you you know what key role the politics plays no so now is this In this I mean with the Serbian president would check which is gonna teach and and and and and and and and and and the huge project noted a huge term in in Novi Belgrade in the Sabomala area And and and and I mean and in Zagreb now you had this Opposition also in Belgrade, but in Zagreb they were so strong for years now They have to now they have the mayor. No, so so I mean And of course, so and then you ask, okay, what what is the point?

But then I mean if I go to it is clear that in in in in Zagreb you have a quite quite a good center and And there it was more the problem that that kind of how to how to treat the center But then there was also the question of the periphery And they had quite some important peripheries And and and and we visited those and and I mean this The socialist housing projects But then but then you go to Belgrade and there you have to visit Novi Belgrade and and I mean that Then you realize okay, but the problems are completely different No, even if even if this is all socialist buildings and then you have post socialism and now How to address that how to address these mass housing units There you could see some parallels that you I mean We then discussed questions of cooperatives So, how could they run this huge bill or is still the state? Still which role plays the state, but that's again different. No, that's that's already different between Serbia and Croatia. 

So So you can't you can't answer that so so this the problems are always specific so you have to first to make You have to make an analysis of the city. You have to understand what are So, how is a how what are the what are the key? What I mean what are the key elements of that city What are the key areas?

I mean, we developed the whole method to do that, but that would be a different thing So to make this type of analysis which can be done completely qualitative. You don't need any statistics for that but it's quite If you're interested in that method, I can Of course, I can explain how it works. No so in the in the case of I mean In The case of our new book So So So So So what you what we did here and that's of course it turned out to be a very Effective way, but I mean it's it's a method that needs time.

Christian Schmid is a geographer, sociologist and urban researcher. He has been a lecturer in sociology since 2001 and adjunct professor in the Department of Architecture at ETH Zurich since 2009.